Rob Burman (Sticks & Stones FX) Interview - Part One 'All In the Family'

Written by Ray Shafer and Jon Bailey

Robert Thomas Burman is a third-generation artist and specialty props designer whom recently turned fine artist. Son of legendary makeup wizard Tom Burman, Rob has over twenty-five years experience in the motion picture industry. His filmography reads like a sci-fi fan’s wet dream; industry credits include The Thing, The Fly, Terminator 2, Batman Returns, GhostBusters, Waterworld, and Pirates of the Carribean. He and his wife, costume designer Jennifer McManus, currently own and manage Sticks and Stones Studio based in Tujunga California.

Rob’s grandfather, Ellis Burman, a commercial sculptor from the Midwest, came to California in the late 30's in search of work. Hired by Universal Studios makeup maestro Jack Pierce (who among others, created the designs for Frankenstein, and The Mummy), Ellis created appliances used on Lon Chaney, Jr. in The Wolf Man. Also, Ellis made the wolf's head cane for the Wolfman, a Wolfman body in ice for House of Frankenstein, overhead masks for The Mummy and the prosthetic pieces and boots for Ghost of Frankenstein. Pierce, though an amazing makeup artist, had very little experience in creating molds and prosthetics. Pierce hired Ellis under the condition his contributions to Pierce’s work would remain a secret.

Rob’s father, Thomas Burman, entered the business in the early sixties after a tour in the Marine Corps. Applying for a studio makeup apprenticeship, he was one of three candidates chosen from ninety six applicants. Thomas actually recommended John Chambers to department head Ben Nye for 'Planet of the Apes'. With Chambers, he worked on the original Planet of the Apes and its four sequels as well as the 1970’s version of The Island of Doctor Moreau. He then founded 'The Burman's Studio' with brother Ellis, Jr. after buying out John Chambers part of the John Chambers Studio (that they all formed together) John Semi-retired at the time. A few years later Thomas bought out Ellis and renamed it 'The Burman Studio'. Ellis went on to start a company called Cosmekinetics and created the Terminator endoskeleton for Stan Winston. He created the makeup effects for Cat People, Invasion of the Bodysnatchers and won his first emmy from his work on 'Primal Man' an early 70's documentary on cavemen. Since then, his television work on E.R. and Nip/Tuck and Tracy Ullman have earned him so many makeup Emmys that it is rumored he now uses them as doorstops and paperweights. (Well it's a rumor anyway...)

There are two other Burmans in the movies; Rob’s younger brother Barney, who has worked on such films as The Grinch, Pearl Harbor, and the remakes of Planet of the Apes and Dawn of the Dead. Also Rob’s uncle, Ellis Jr. (Sonny),who ran Mike Westmore’s lab over at Paramount Studios for many years until he retired a few years back. Even Rob's Uncle, Tom Hoerber was department head for NYPD Blue, Hill Street Blues and The Colby's. He was also Robert Redford's personal artist since The Natural.

Now that you know about the family, without further delay, I give you part one in a two part interview with FX makeup legend, Rob Burman...

NE-FX: Burman industries was started by your mother Sandy Berman. Where were you in your career when Berman Industries got off the ground ?

RB: And I never told you what year that exactly was did I?

NE-FX: No You said you were going to look into it…

RB: Well it was probably the later part of the middle eighties, probably 86 or 87 maybe… I know that because my mom got the foam latex business when she divorced my dad. She started making it out of her garage and that was probably 85 or 86. well in 85 I had just finished “The Offspring” and was moving to Northern California to work on “The Fly” with Chris Walas.

NE-FX: Oh…cool.

RB: So that’s about where I was at, at that time.

NE-FX: What work were you doing for the fly?

RB: Actually I drove up there and interviewed on Thursday, and I got the job, and drove home to move out of my apartment… and moved up to northern California on Sunday to get the job up there. I found out later they were like “do we really wanna hire this guy”? “I don’t know he’s this Hollywood guy” blah blah blah. And at the time I found them to be a little more backwoods. They were a few years behind us in L.A. as far as Effects were concerned, so When I went up there and started running foam for them… Actually In the very beginning I did a few molds there and everything - eventually figuring out the 'splitting skin rigs' for what was then called 'The Brundle Fly'… but to do foam work, naturally they picked me. The first day I ran a perfect batch of foam you know? And I was scared shitless Because I didn’t think I would be able to. I Hadn’t run a big Twenty quart Hobart Mixer For three or four years before that. Well maybe two years because I ran it on Ghostbusters. And then when I went up there I was like oh shit, I haven’t run one of these in a while. I hope this works. And so I’m leaving at the end of the day and Chris Walas' and his brother Mark, who was the foreman of the shop, are there sitting in the office together and they say… “So how did it go?” I replied “it was good” then they asked “did you get the foam out”? And I was like “perfect batch no problem”. I stepped out the door and I felt like a God for the moment.

[Laughter]

RB: So I guess they liked me up there. I had a really good time… I worked on “The Fly” and “Golden Child” up there.

NE-FX: How did Burman Industries come about?

RB: Well, that really starts with the history of foam latex. The history of foam latex as I know it, Started out with George Bau back in the thirties with films like The Wizard of Oz and what not. And then sometime in the fifties, at least I think it’s the fifties, I’m not sure… Charlie Schram one of the original makeup artists from the Wizard of Oz, Went by George’s house and George was dumping all the components in the street. And Charlie was like…”George, what are you doing?” George said “I’m not doing this shit any more…I’m not doing this.” Charlie is like “OK, well uh, I think I would like to continue doing it, do you mind?” And George replied, “I’ll give it to you for fifty bucks.” [laughter] Then he said “Come back on Monday, I’ll tell you how to use all of it.” So he goes away and comes back on Monday and when he gets there, Gordon who is George’s brother is there and he’s speaking with a couple other people and tells Charlie “didn’t you hear? George killed himself this weekend!”

NE-FX: Oh My God!

RB: So Charlie was like…”he sold me all of the stuff in there”… and Gordon said “you can have whatever you want.” Charlie went into the garage and figured out how George had made the foam.

NE-FX: Figured it out from…

RB: Notes and components and just figured it out and made it work. He called it “Windsor Hills Foam” because that’s where Charlie lived. But it was also known in the industry as “Schram Foam”. And when Charlie retired when he was 77 years old or something… he began looking around for someone to buy the business from him. Charlie contacted my Dad since he knew him for years and because they knew I had run so much foam on so many shows (Started with “The Thing” and all of that). He said he gave my Dad first crack at it, and my Dad said “sure lets buy it”. So I went and learned from Charlie and my Mom took notes.

NE-FX: For more than $50 I’m thinking?

RB: Uh… yeah probably. I have no idea really, but probably a year’s worth of income from the company. Which I tend to think is the standard situation for that type of thing. So he sold it to my Dad and my Dad sent me and my Mom down there and my Mom took notes while I learned. We put all that stuff together… and I was making it for a while and when I decided to go and do the show “The Offspring” I needed to show somebody else how to make the foam while I was gone. So, in steps this guy who my dad had hired for “The Goonies” and “Teen Wolf” and what not. He used to be a chemist and his name was Gil Mosko.

NE-FX: Hmmm.

RB: So I taught him how to make it, and run it, and when I came back from the show he decided he wanted to be the sole maker of it, or he wasn’t going to do it anymore. And I am like, “well, I am not always around to do this so…” I bit the bullet and I said “ok, you make it and I won’t make it any more”. Well then my Dad and Mom got divorced and as part of the settlement the Burman Foam Latex part of the company was awarded to my Mom. So my mom began making that in her garage.

NE-FX: So she started making foam herself from the family owned recipe in her garage?

RB: Exactly, well primarily with Gil’s help cause he had been getting more into the makeup industry and he couldn’t always complete the orders so my Mom helped by making it as well. So Between her and Gil it was going along well and it became that most of it was being done by Gil in his garage until it burned down. Apparently he left a hot plate on while cooking foaming agent. He wanted my Mom to reimburse him for the loss and of course her position was.. “I didn’t leave the hotplate on”. So they had a falling out and after a short period of time Gil started making GM foam. Basically using our 'Top Secret' formula which I taught him.

NE-FX: I see… [nervous laughter]…

RB: Anyway, from there my Mom started getting calls from people saying “I also need ultracal do you know what that is?” and she would be like, “Sure…I know where I can get that”. And then it was “can you send clay” and it got into a big enough mail order industry that she opened a warehouse with a small retail space. She went from foam and a couple of complimentary products to 3000 products in 5 years.

NE-FX: Now that’s explosive growth!

RB: Yeah.

NE-FX: Burman Industries is no longer owned by the Burman family right?

RB: No, Sam from Namies Beauty Supply bought it in late 2003.

NE-FX: Why did that happen?

RB: Because my Mom got sick. She developed MS and she could not watch herself and the business at the same time. She had some management in there that weren't the most qualified of people. Definitely not qualified for business, and they hurt it a lot. They did not want to expand it and didn’t want it to grow. All of a sudden there was competition with a couple of other FX companies that started selling stuff thinking they could underbid her and sell it for cheaper. Well after a while they found out that it still costs that much. The quickly found out that you cannot underbid my Mom because she wasn’t making enough as it is. People STILL think that these companies are over priced. Mostly those who have never really run a business and have no idea what it takes to do it. THAT is where the prices come from.

NE-FX: Just not much room there eh?

RB: Right. So Yeah that was a precarious wire. Then there was a strike of the actors and writers threatening and that slowed things down. Everyone thought let’s start pumping out product, take a vacation and we’ll be fine while the strike is on. So we pounded out a lot of product in Hollywood and sat back waiting for the strike. That meant there was no business in buying materials because no films were being made. My Mom’s income went way down even though their output was still running nice and strong. Her Management was unwilling to do anything about it. She couldn’t pay attention to it because she was getting sick. Then 9/11 hit right after the strike threat ended. Everyone went [he gasps and draws his hands towards his chest] and really stopped. So there was a year of close to nothing. Zero. No productions in the entertainment industry. That was really, really ugly. Lots of long time veterans lost there homes, had to take retail jobs - it was rough. Globalization meant that Other countries could now do what we did and you could go there and get some of the stuff Burman's had and didn’t have to contact my Mom anymore. You could do it in Lithuania with latex from India and moldmaking materials you got in Britain. And when it seemed she could not run anything anymore because her health was so bad I finally said, “Alright you are retiring.” We looked around to find a company to take the business and we talked to a lot of people Sam was the only one who said “I want to keep it just the way it is. I don’t want to change the name, I want to keep it the same and make it bigger. I want you (meaning Me) to advise and your Mom to be involved if she wants and not to be involved if she cannot or does not want to. But basically I would like to keep things exactly the same.”

RB: Right. Being a good business man, he probably dumped a big chunk of money into it, and built it back into what it is now.

NE-FX: You currently manufacture materials for Burman Industries out of your special effects shop and appear at their booth every year at the Makeup Artists Tradeshow in Pasadena. So what exactly do you make for Burman?

RB: Rubberwear, sculpting busts and Foam injector guns.

NE-FX: And what do you think of the show?

RB: I love going because it lets me play celebrity for a few hours. I think it has been really fun. I really enjoy it. I get to see people I don’t get to see very often and there are some people I only get to see there. It’s a great way to catch up. I rarely get to see any of the rest of the show. The only lecture I have ever been to is one I lectured at. So I have never seen any of that. I do usually look through the makeup museum which I take about 5 minutes to do, other than that I just hang around the Burman booth and talk to people all weekend.

NE-FX: Have you ever attended the trade show in London?

RB: I did it once and that was fun.

NE-FX: What were the different shows like by comparison?

RB: I felt the London show was more crowded like the early trade shows here. But it didn’t have as big a venue so the show definitely felt smaller. I noticed a lot more people willing to walk up and be made up. I put on 28 pairs of ears in two days that weekend. It was fun, I really enjoyed it. Because you’ll do a black kid, and an asian kid, and a French girl, etc? All the skin types you could possibly imagine thrown at you every twenty minutes. It’s Great.

NE-FX: Your Company Sticks and Stones FX has done some pretty amazing stuff over the years. Your wife Jennifer creates the fantastic costumes that your company is known for and you produce the props and makeup effects. That’s quite a double threat. What are the greatest advantages of working with your spouse?

RB: You get a really tight one-on-one and you can speak with only a glance. You know instantly that she is on the same page as you are.

NE-FX: So it’s an increase in efficiency?

RB: My Shop is so much better…I am so much better... when I work with people for a long period of time. That’s why I train my interns with the intention of having a group of people that all know things the way I know them and will do them that way. So if I have to walk away, I know it will get done that way.

NE-FX: Sticks and Stones has taken on interns over the years that have gone on to do great work of their own.

RB: Won Emmys even!

NE-FX: Exactly! Joe Colwel won an emmy at Steve Johnson’s Edge FX for “The Stand” miniseries. Who are some of the people who you have worked with that we might know about?

RB: Christian Tinsley is one, he came to my shop, he wasn’t an intern, I think I was the second person he worked for here. I believe he worked for Gabe Bartolos for a short time first. Who else? God you know…Dozens of people. Most don't really move on into a position of notoriety. Some have gone on way past me.

NE-FX: It just seems like everyone I run into in the industry says the same thing, “Yeah I worked with Rob” or “ I got started there with Rob”.

RB: A lot of my interns went on to do a lot of things but I’m thinking, “Jeez I worked with everybody.” I dunno, I bet if you threw out a name I betcha I have worked with them.

NE-FX: For the record, do you still offer internships?

RB: On occasion, but not as often as I used to.

NE-FX: Do you find yourself more or less selective with the people you choose to work with?

RB: Humph..that’s really hard to say…

NE-FX: Lets rephrase that then…Do you find it easy to find interns or are you more selective about who you let into that circle?

RB: I think interns become a dime a dozen. Everyone thinks, 'Wouldn't that be a cool job' so they find someone like me. I think that they weed themselves out really fast when they realize what the commitment is to being an intern here. Very few of them stay with me for a long period of time if they don’t have what it takes to be really good at what this job calls for. I start my “weeding-out” process by giving them the ugly jobs to do. How long will they do them for and do they do them well? The other thing is that a lot of them come and they may not…well lets take an average person who has no experience or who has, you know, just minimal graphic arts experience or high school arts education. And they say, “I really want to learn how to do this” and they come to work and they learn how to do one or two things and think they know what they are doing …but it takes months. Sometimes a year. And maybe you don’t get paid during that year. Can you stick with it that long? Do you have the backing to be able to go, “Yeah, I don’t have to go to work for this amount of time.”. In the end you are only going to get out of it what you put into it. You could feasably learn nothing!

NE-FX: That’s a good point…it would be expensive to not have a job for a year.

RB: Look at it this way: If what you REALLY want to do is what I do, then the schools are not going to give that to you. If you ARE going to go to school, if you are going to spend 10-12 thousand dollars to go to Joe Blasco’s, why don’t you just pocket that money, put a little in an investment. Then get a cheap little apartment and go and volunteer for a person like me? When they’re working on a show, there is no better experience in the world. And you will never learn that in school. The stuff you learn in school is just going to be the basics. You can still do that…I’m not saying don’t…I’m saying you won’t need it after the trial by fire that real world experience can bring.

NE-FX: As long as we’re talking about schools, do you personally recommend any of the schools? Do you think any of the schools are sufficient to teach what needs to be learned to work in this industry?

RB: If you want to learn what to learn…go to school… sure. But you are only going to touch the tip of the iceberg of what is involved with this industry. I am talking about a lab tech. I am not talking about an on set makeup person. A makeup person is not a lab tech.

NE-FX: A whole different animal…

RB: Right, a whole different situation. So when you are talking about being a lab tech, I don’t know about anybody at any of the schools that is…let’s say…exceedingly qualified to teach it. They’ll be able to show you the basics and all of that. Then you’ll come into a place like this and your eyes will get so big they’ll fall out of your head because of what the intensity can be.

NE-FX: Do you think there is a lack of good lab technician teachers out there? Do you think the schools need lab technicians who can teach?

RB: Sure, absolutely. If someone offered that course it would be great except for one thing: It’s a long-term course. It’s a lot of work. You know, I designed this course one time that I thought would be just the greatest. Basically, you get a certain set of groups together and you have three weeks to make a monster. Start to finish. And each department of it’s manufacture has it’s own department head. You have a mechanical guy, a sculptor, a moldmaker, and the group of people move from department to department in making a monster in three weeks. You know, Rick Baker took six months designing “The Grinch”. I think that Rick is the most Talented guy out there as far as shops go. But SIX MONTHS? That is more than most productions I have EVER been on. Most of them are 'I need this next week'. If you can produce Rick Baker quality under 'no time or money' restrictions, you will be a God.

[laughter]

This is real trial by fire stuff.

NE-FX: It would definitely be a challenge. Sounds like a reality show in the making.

RB: Exactly. Don't try it though, I own the rights.

NE-FX: We have a cult of celebrity in this society and of course every one would like to know who are some of the stars you have had the pleasure (or disdain) of working with?

RB: I just worked with Tom Cruise. That was probably the most efficient set I have ever worked on. It was really, really, well run and set up. I was impressed.

NE-FX: Did you have an opportunity to meet Mr. Cruise?

RB: We acknowledged each other with eye contact the two or so times I happened to be standing in his way. [laughter]

NE-FX: Who else have you worked with over the years?

RB: I worked with Dennis Hopper for “Super Mario Brothers” I had to go to his house to do his lifecast. That was quite interesting. Umm…

NE-FX: I know you’ve worked with many, what people consider to be ah…character actors…Michael Ironside

RB: Michael Ironside – great guy, really nice guy

NE-FX: Um, who is this gentleman – The Hills Have Eyes?

RB: Oh, Michael Barryman – also a really nice guy. I just worked with him a couple of years ago.

NE-FX: Michael Barryman…ok

RB: God there’s just – you know over the years there’ve been so many. Like you know I’ve done, ah, Leonard Nimoy’s lifecast. I’ve worked on Bill Barty (??). Most of the really big stars that I’ve encountered have all been primarily when I’ve been working with my dad. Though I did, which I noticed in your notes, work along side Bill Murray.

NE-FX: Yup.

RB: I puppeteered the Ghost of Christmas Future in Scrooged. And I was in the rib cage when he was standing in the elevator. He turns to the guy and he opens up his cloak and what he sees inside are the 3 lost, withered souls going “Aaaah” inside the ribs. He goes “Ah, our people do that?” And that kind of thing. But while it was being puppeteered from the reverse shot, I’m inside moving the arms and things like that. The first take he opens up the cloak and goes “AAAAH!” And I’m like “uh uh”. He screamed at me right in front of my face. I was like –(fast breathing) – and the whole rest of the time I was really relaxed. So...

NE-FX: So he just broke the ice for you?

RB: Yeah, I guess it worked out for me.

NE-FX: Ok, well, given time, budget, and effect, what was the most technically difficult gag to produce and why?

RB: Boy, I think the hardest job I had to do at this point, just by going back and looking at how much stress level I encountered on a job was The Power Rangers.

NE-FX: The Power Rangers? OK.

RB: Because those suits had to look like Ferraris. You know, they had to be like super, high-tech, smooth, automobile looking things. They had to be perfect and we got handed some material that wasn’t going to work. But they’d already invested lots of money in these bolts of fabric that they insisted we had to use. So every single day I thought I was going to be sued. “It’s never going to work! It’s never going to work!” In the end I have to say it all worked. It worked out fine. Through all the sabotage and all the other crap that happened on that show – it’s the best looking thing on the show. Not to throw anything against anyone else who worked on it, but –

NE-FX: Alright, so this is the original Power Rangers movie, right?

RB: Yes.

NE-FX: OK, and you created the outfits that the Power Rangers were wearing?

NE-FX: Including the Stunt outfits?

RB: Yes. Those were identical except they were made up inside so they could fit other people and had harnesses underneath. We made six of each suit in each color. Two hero suits and four stunt suits. One of which was also for flying him. We didn’t make the boots. Nike made the boots but we decorated them so they matched the suits. They also gave us white leather gloves which we used to make the gauntlets with. We did all the power coins, etc.

NE-FX: Do you have any favorites you have worked on over the years?

RB: It’s usually the one I’m most interested in when I’m being interviewed. It’s really my latest one that I’m the most proud of. My brother did some awesome work on “Mission Impossible III” I’m really honored to have been involved with that with him. I thought our dog we created for “Nip/Tuck” was pretty good too.

NE-FX: Tell me about your work on the comedy classic “Ghostbusters”

RB: Unfortunately I was never on set. I was in the Boss Films Labs running Foam. That’s what I got to do for the show. I was doing “Ghostbusters” and “2010” at the same time.

NE-FX: You mentioned to me that you had a part to play in the creation of Mr. Stay Puft?

RB: I cast the foam skins for his head, hands, feet, collar and hat. The rest of it was all foam constructed. It was made so you had six different suits so you could shoot from six different angles. Because in order to avoid any seams or anything, they would stretch these big sheets of foam over one another in layers so that all the wrinkles would be gathered to one side. That way the front side was always nice and smooth and the back looked like a big balloon knot. There were three different heads, two different stages of melting the head.

NE-FX: Early on you worked on a movie with your Dad that stands today as one of my personal favorites, “The Goonies.” I also know that your father worked on the makeup for the central “Sloth” character played by John Matuzak. What can you tell me about that experience?

RB: Mainly that John was a really nice guy but when he was irritated, he was very disrespectful. [acting as his dad] “Don’t get it wet John, just don’t get it wet cause we can’t afford 3 more hours to put you back into a new one”. He would just walk right out into the water and dunk himself under. They were shooting in the lagoon you know? When he’s supposed to be coming out of the water with the kids. He would just walk out there turn around and go “bloop” and just come up and look at everybody. My Dad would be like..”alright, out of the water..lets go”. As soon as he got it wet, the R/C mechanics didn’t work any more. You’d have to tear it all apart to dry out all the mechanics and get them working again. By the way, I believe that was the first time anything that compact had been done.

NE-FX: I certainly don’t recall seeing anything that early on that small and complex.

RB: My uncle Ellis (they call him Sonny in the family) and his company Cosmikenetics worked alongside my dad to do the mechanics for the inside of that. Sonny was also responsible for machining all of the full sized puppet stuff for the Terminator.The very first time you see Sloth watching TV was the one Craig Reardon did and his ear-wiggling mechanism was really high tech…almost too high tech to believe. It’s called “fishing line”. [laughter]

NE-FX: I think I remember that!

RB: Yep, he would just pull them with his fingers and give the ears a little wiggle. There’s actually clear cello tape over some of the blending edges cause they were so bad. Cello tape in a Spielberg film – this is a really good idea! [Laughter]

NE-FX: What was it like working on “The Fly” and did you meet David Cronenberg?

RB: I saw him in the shop but did not get to meet him. Once again, I was in the shop up near San Francisco and they were shooting in Toronto. This was work I did with Chris Walas.

NE-FX: Were you also running foam for “The Fly”?

RB: I was making molds and running foam, yes.

NE-FX: What did you think of the designs for “The Fly”?

RB: I thought that, at the time, they could do something far more interesting. In retrospect, it played very well. Obviously it won an Academy award, so it was worthy of something but it’s still not the direction I personally would have taken. Probably whay they didn't choose me to supervise the job!

NE-FX: Being a now Internationally known makeup artist, you have had some pretty interesting gigs in other countries. For instance, tell us about your trip to China.

RB: I have done two films there now. The first one was the hardest experience of my life. Three and a half months living in the back country. Living in villages with cattle walking down the walkways. But we saw some of the most incredible things you will ever see in your life. Such as thousands-of-year-old cities and Buddhist temples that were thousands of years old on a mountain called Wu Tai Shan. It has 103 Buddhist temples on it which are in various states of being eaten by the land. The mountains are all terraced. Mountains thousands of feet tall and all terraced. You would be driving down a road following the yellow river in the middle of absolutely nowhere and you would see this lone man on top of the mountain with a hoe. And you are like…oh crap! Talk about hard, you just know he cut every last terrace with that hoe too!

[laughter]

Watching them make stone bridges and seeing them hand cut the granite stone out of the rock and carry it down on carts with donkeys and things like that.

NE-FX: Real artisan kind of living huh?

RB: It was a thousand years ago all of a sudden. And we would go by in our big luxury bus…

[laughter]

NE-FX: So what were you working on over there?

RB: That time was a film called “Bethune” or “Dr. Bethune” is what it may have been released as, with Donald Southerland. It is about a doctor in the late 1930’s who was a Canadian doctor who joined the communist party and helped Mao fight the republic and the Japanese pre-second world war. When he got there they were losing 9 out of 10 people from septicemia. They were infected from improper surgeries…People were blown open they would stitch you back up, they didn’t bother to clean you out first or anything. Of course, they knew nothing about antiseptic at the time. So he came and taught them about antiseptics and they started saving 9 out of 10 lives. Until he cuts his own finger and there isn’t enough antiseptic and he dies of septicemia himself. But he was kind of a…well he was a dick, so…as much as he was their hero, it just didn’t make a sympathetic movie. So it wasn’t revered all that well. I might as well not even have been there.

NE-FX: You ended up on the cutting room floor?

RB: Basically yeah. We did a lot of amputation surgeries and horrendous things for background. Stuff was seen, but because of the way it was dramatized, it never features anything we did. It was all incidental, background kinda stuff. So it really didn’t show or read much. It was the most growing experience I ever had. It was the first time I ever had “flying” dreams. I was this suburban Los Angeles punk kid who paints people’s faces for a living and makes rubber monsters being thrown into this world that I had no idea what it was like. I grew up really fast. It took me years before I could stop talking about it.

NE-FX: I understand that two of your most favorite FX films are actually musicals. Tell me about the first time you saw “Little Shop of Horrors” and your tribute to “The Wizard of Oz”.

RB: The first time I saw “Little Shop of Horrors”, I sat there with my jaw on the floor! When I managed to pick up my jaw and clean off the old ju-ju bees from the floor, I tried to figure out how they did it. I knew it was live and I knew it was full size. I know with puppets, you cant make it move that fast. You just cannot make it sing! It just doesn’t happen! Physics gets in the way. So I saw it 5 times in a row over a three month period.

NE-FX: Just trying to dissect it?

RB: Yeah looking at it and showing people who haven’t see it “you haven’t seen it?!? Oh My God You have got to go see this!!” We would talk about it after and …

NE-FX: For the record we are talking about the 1986 remake directed by Frank Oz.

RB: Yep. Then I found out the damn bastards filmed it at half speed. And I was like AWWW! Of course! Still some of the best cinematic puppet work I have ever seen. “Wizard of Oz” I have always been a big fan since I was little…When I found out that my friend Scott Essman was doing a tribute… and they were going to re-create the characters and have them re-enact the basic premises of the film… in front of a group of eighty makeup artists some of which who had worked on the film as a tribute to them..I thought wow this is really great! He had asked my wife Jennifer to build a Winky guard costume (which is one of the Witch‘s guards). So she was building that and I wondered what could I contribute? Bill Corso and Ve neil and Kevin Haney - they were doing the main characters all ready. I figured there must be something…so I thought I should create a plaque. Scott said “I was thinking of going to have a plaque made…” I said, “No, don’t worry about it. I’ll do it. Because I immediately in my mind knew what it should be…The tornado with the characters coming out of it. You know, with a tiny farmhouse and Dorothy looking up at it. I just thought, It’s gotta be the plaque to tribute the whole thing. So I created ten of them for Bill Tuttle, Charlie Schram, Jerry Merrin, (one of the munchkins). It was great.

NE-FX: In the forefront of the horror genre for many FX artists and horror fans alike is the movie “The Thing” Please, tell us about your role in the making of that film and working with Rob Bottin.

RB: I was working with my dad, and I had just finished “The Beast Within” and was just about mid-way through “Cat People”. My dad had gotten a call from his friend Ken Diaz who had worked with him on Heaven’s Gate. He said we are looking for someone who knows his way around foam. My dad said “My son does my foam work”. So Ken said “Can you lose him for awhile?” He said, “Yeah, pretty much after next week we’re done in the lab”. So I got sent over there and was interviewed along with my friend Dale (we were partners and had worked on just about everything together to this point, we were school best friends and all of that.) They wanted foam people and we went in there and that was the first time I had seen the big twenty quart mixers! And there were three of them! That was when I realized that it may be just a little more than I know how to handle!

NE-FX: So these were not your standard tabletop Hobart mixers then…

RB: NO! These were the big industrial mixers for bakeries… bowls 2 feet around …that kind of thing. So anyway, we just took the job and we said “ok, let’s just do it” and so we started running all the foam for the show. I ran it for somewhere around five months of just doing foam work. We fit in between the cracks on the union show because no one wanted to claim responsibility for the foam work. It wasn’t being used as a makeup so it wasn’t a makeup thing…and props didn’t know anything about foam latex, the moldmakers didn’t know anything about it so…we fit in between the cracks and were able to do whatever we wanted to. It wasn’t until we were on “Ghostbusters” that we determined that if it’s on a puppet, and not on your skin, it’s a prop.

NE-FX: What did you think of the designs for “The Thing”?

RB: I just kept thinking, “This is the weirdest stuff!” I would watch Rob Bottin design and he would sit there with Mike Ploog and they were saying things like “try doing this…and try doing that” some things looked like big plates of spaghetti if the flour tipped over onto it. It was just really bizarre looking…really weird. I had no idea what to expect and I was having more fun just doing the show.

NE-FX: For “Super Mario Brothers” you were asked to turn Dennis Hopper into the Dinosaur character “King Koopa”. What can you tell us about that experience?

RB: I had very little face time with Dennis Hopper. I did his lifecast at his house. Aside from that, on set, Jake Garber applied it for me. I was doing one of the big transformational pieces where we had it on a different guy. So I didn’t get to deal with Dennis all that much. I did work with the stunt guy a lot. This is funny; the day I showed up on location in North Carolina was the director’s last day on the show! He and his wife were directing it together and basically had quit. So I was being directed by the D.P. (who was Dean Semler, a really terrific guy). But you know, I arrive on set and here I am people…I’m ready to work! “Oh, by the way, the directors quit.”

[laughter]

That was kind of odd, but three weeks on a SAG performing contract, well it was all a lot of fun. I only worked like four days while I was there but I was on a three week contract so..it all worked out.

NE-FX: Did you ever meet Bob Hoskins or John Leguizamo while you were there?

RB: They were on set but the whole time they were there I was about thirty feet in the air on a cherry-picker with a puppet on top of me. So for the most part I really didn’t get to work with them much. Besides it was a big radio controlled puppet and all of that. There wasn’t anything for them to do but point their guns at it.

NE-FX: What was Sticks and Stones asked to provide for “Waterworld”

RB: God, we made…so many baskets and water jugs and a functional raft and chairs and lamps and tables and lots of set dressing. We made a realistic pufferfish. And a big three foot by three foot slab of whale meat. So much stuff…they just needed so much stuff and had no money. Also, I did “Waterworld”, planned my wedding, and started Sticks and Stones all within three months of each other…I don’t recommend it.

[Laughter]

NE-FX: Recently, you worked on “The Last Samurai”. Tell us what that project called for and how it was accomplished.

RB: I worked for a short time for Mark Rappaport on the show making dead horses for big battle field sequences. Scenes where they would have dead animals laying around in the background. So I got over there and did a lot of the flocking, which is how you apply short synthetic hair onto the horse forms. When they were working on them, I thought they all looked very stiff and rigid. So I talked him into letting me cut them up a bit and place them into different positions. I did one that was kind of curled up in a fetal position, and one that was stretched way out like it had been leaping. People would walk by these things and just go… “Ohhh!”. It was just sickening to get a look at these things.

NE-FX: So when you get sick looking at all the dead horses in “Samurai” that’s Rob’s Work!

RB: That’s right…that’s me uh, by way of Mark Rappaport. [laughter]

NE-FX: In 2002 you worked on a tribute to one of the seminal makeup artists Jack Pierce. What can you tell us about this labor of love and how it went?

RB: It was definitely a labor of love because none of us got paid to do any of it. We did a lot of stuff. I am very proud of the work we did on that because we reproduced with such accuracy so many things. Things I thought we did best were more than just the monsters. It was the real people. People like Basil Rathbone and people like that who we created look-alikes for. That was the thing I liked the best. Maria Esponskia who was the old witch in “The Wolfman”, I applied it and my brother designed it. She was a lot of fun to do. And to do everything in black and white so that when you are on stage, it was like you were watching the movie…it was a lot of fun.

NE-FX: Did that affect your time in producing these? Being in black and white must have affected production time because you didn’t have to worry about color blending…or did it have it’s own set of challenges?

RB: Yeah, it was all the grayscale stuff..the problem was every time the lighting changed, they changed. We blew up photos of them all when we were first starting but it was tough to figure out. Una O’Connor who was in the “Invisible Man” and she was in “Bride of Frankenstein”. She’s the one who goes “Oh my, it’s the monster!” and is always running and screaming all over the place. She was tough because her face was so animated that she looks like half a dozen different people depending on where you are looking at her. So some of that was really, really, tough to do. That’s why I am so proud of what we did with all of them.

NE-FX: You are known as one of the best moldmakers in the industry. Do you think that accurately represents who you are & what you do?

RB: I think it’s easy to get pigeonholed in a particular job in this industry and I think people look at you specifically as a foam runner or a sculptor or a moldmaker or a painter. You know, that kind of thing.

NE-FX: Do you think that people aren’t allowed to wear more than one hat now?

RB: Well, kinda… Your last job you were a moldmaker. So you get recommended by moldmakers for another job. And soon you are known as a moldmaker. I think the days of people like what I was best at are kind of coming to an end on that level. I was best at knowing everything. I’m not saying I was the best at any of them in particular. There are some really good people out there. But running a shop means doing everything well. So that’s where it was most important to me- to know each and every step of the process. I learned backwards. I learned how to cast things – how to cast products, how to make foam pieces. And I did this before I learned how to make molds or sculpt. So when I was casting things, I would say things like – “Guys if you make your molds like this it would be easier for me to cast these pieces.” Then when I learned how to make molds, I started making them that way so that it would be easier to cast. Then I would go to the sculptors and say – “You know if you guys sculpted this in this position, it would be much easier to mold.” So I learned kind of everything in reverse. And by doing so, I learned how to make each thing better for the next step in the process. And I think that’s where I learned my versatility. And my ability to do each thing a little bit better.

NE-FX: Give us an example of how molds and foam can go horribly awry?

RB: How about spending 2 ½ weeks on a sculpture, making the first two pieces of a three piece mold and going to turn it over and having it leap out of your hands onto the floor and shatter? [laughter] And still having to finish the mold that night! [laughter]

NE-FX: And so what happened?

RB: I re-sculpted really, really fast and around midnight or so, I was making the mold. And I said “You know… he looks meaner somehow.” [laughter] And he really did; he was pissed off.

NE-FX: The mold got angry with you, huh?

RB: Well, with foam a good example would be like when you have to have a perfect piece out the next day, you’ve got an intern that’s grinding something with a Dremel tool and the foam piece get sucked up into the tool and eats it all to pieces! And you’re like [stares open-mouthed] … The only thing you can do is (together) go make another one, you know.

NE-FX: How do you feel about people who say – “I have moved beyond moldmaking. I’m a sculptor; now I’m a real artist.”?

NE-FX: You are a member of SAG, but not a member of the make-up union (IATSE). Why is that and would you recommend it?

RB: If you’re going to run a company, there are two things you should do if you want to be like me. First thing is – join the union as soon as you can, as early as you can, because it opens up the big budget opportunities to you. You’re never going to work with a Tom Cruise if you’re not in the union. Unless you get lucky and do it the way I did it. The difference is now I do too many things to be in any one of the unions. But I shot myself in the foot… I don’t have the opportunities. Now, I have to work with Joe Lowbudget that has no time and money or for that matter, respect…instead of going on to the bigger productions where I have worked myself up to. So I have worked myself up to a place monetarily where the guys I normally work for can’t afford me. The guys who can afford me, I can’t work for because I’m not in the union. So I say join the union and befriend every production manager, line producer, unit production manager, producer and director you can find. All of them; make those guys your friends. Not that I dislike the guys that I work with, but they’ll always be there because that’s our job. You need to befriend these other guys so that when they are the next Spielberg, they are calling you because you have done great work together in the past and they think of you first. It really is about “jockeying for position”. You need to be really ambitious. I am not that ambitious but then again…I don’t really care. [laughter]

NE-FX: Lets get this out there…The Videos…they continue to stand as the most thorough documentation of a clean polished case mold, foam latex appliance creation and application, multi-piece molds, and lifecasting. Everything a beginner needs to get the basics. Will you ever re-make them?

RB: Re-make them? Probably not. I was thinking of adding to them at one point, but I decided…it’s behind me. [laughter] It’s just that I am doing other things that are important to me with my sculpture and my art to go back and re-visit them. We will put them on DVD, but that’s probably about it.

NE-FX: Will they ever be available at a place like Amazon?

RB: I would love to. However, getting Amazon to list you is not the easiest thing in the world. You have to apply and all of that. I have tried to find distributors for them and things like that. it’s a little too tight a niche for most people to consider us. I don’t really think that’s fair, because I think it would do really well. But convincing some 55 year old non-creative accountant type that it’s going to make him money is tough. Because we are the creative weird types…you know?

NE-FX: Have you ever thought about making any more? Perhaps for release on a website? (Wink wink, nudge nudge)

RB: We talked about doing product videos where like, here’s a 20 minute video on polyfoam or urethanes or different things like that. Individual different products. That is still in the works and if it does happen it will happen in it’s time.

NE-FX: Let’s talk for a minute about your Foam Latex appliance line called “RubberWear”. When did you launch “RubberWear”?

RB: You know,’ I think it was 1997 or ‘98. It’s taken a while to get it off the ground but uh, it’s further now than I ever thought it would be.

NE-FX: What was your inspiration to offer these alternatives for makeup artists?

RB: Initially, it was twofold…One, it was to keep people busy during downtime. So we could make foam pieces when we weren’t busy. The second was that I get calls all the time from people saying “I need a pig nose for a shoot tomorrow”. In general, that’s not going to happen! But if it was, it would be a $600-$1000 piece. Rubber Wear gives you that same piece for, lke, $25 bucks and you CAN have it tomorrow.

NE-FX: Listening in on your phone conversations must be very interesting. [laughter] in a frantic tone…”Rob, thank God you’re there!...I need a pig nose tomorrow!

RB: I think my friend Andrea said it the best…”did you ever fix the lips?” I’m like what? And she says “Well I overheard you guys were talking and you were saying her lips were too big and there wasn’t anything you could do about it. What did you end up doing?” You hear some weird shit….[laughter] Ever talk about corpses and rotting flesh over a meat-lover's pizza?

NE-FX: Who are some of the people that use your line professionally?

RB: Bill Corso, Ve Neil, Arron Krugger, Tom Hoerber. Bill used them on an award show on Jim Carrey. That was kinda cool. But they have been on “Sabrina: The Teenage Witch”, “NYPD Blue”, “Hill Street Blues”, The Sopranos, Several HBO Productions…They get used a lot more often than I thought they would. When I first did this, I thought they might sell a little bit, but I didn’t think the market was going to be big. A couple of years ago, we sold 500 pairs of large elf ears in a two-month period just for Halloween! I thought, “Whoah…there is a market for this and it’s getting bigger!

NE-FX: Do you have any plans to add anything new to the line?

RB: Sure…every once and a while I will put in a new piece.

NE-FX: What’s the latest piece you have added?

RB: The “Incredibly Familiar Hero” mask. Inspired by the animated feature “The Incredibles.” There just aren’t any good super hero masks out there. There is just the Robin-style bandit mask. They’re either cheap cardboard at a party shop or some really bad slush latex cowl. So we made these really nice foam latex masks that are off white right now but you can paint them any color. You could dress normally and be Super Normal Guy!

NE-FX: Ok, finally can you give me the low down on Bigfoot and your Dad?

RB: The story goes that when John Landis was doing his film 'Schlock', John Chambers told him that he was the one that created the famous 'Big Foot' footage that everyone has seen. Now, I KNOW that John Chambers went to his deathbed denying that he was involved. He was a top secutity military prosthetologist. He was entrusted with hundreds of pieces of top secret information. He did CIA and FBI work. He never told a soul. Not one. Now, John Landis tells us that John Chambers told him about this? A guy who he obnly met professionally on some little film? Sounds kind of fishy and self important to me. I even read where it was possible that my Dad was the one in the suit. From what I can tell, my Dad was too short and fat at the time to have been the one. As much as I wish either to be true, Big Foot is non-existant and the tricksters that pulled off the film were PROBABLY not my Dad or John Chambers. I only say 'probably' because I don't know who really did it and wasn't there to verify it.